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Sleep-walking into 1984? - "Stop the Bill!"

in

A national day of protest against the Search and Surveillance Bill will be held on Saturday, 24th April. Simultaneous protests will be held in Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch.

UPDATE Saturday: Reports from protest in Wellington and Auckland and New Plymouth

“It is time to get out on the street and show our disgust with this Bill,” Batch Hales, spokesperson for the Wellington Stop the Bill group said.

“There has been horror expressed at this Bill since it was first introduced to the House,” Batch continued. “People and groups up and down the country have spoken out against it and the Chief Justice, the Privacy Commissioner and the Human Rights Commissioner have all consistently criticized it. It’s time the government saw sense and scrapped the whole Bill.”

If it becomes law, the Search and Surveillance Bill will see a dramatic expansion of police and government agencies’ powers. It will also fundamentally alter longstanding legal conventions such as the right to silence, the right against self-incrimination and the right to be free from unreasonable search.

Auckland 2pm - grassy area opposite the Town Hall, Queen Street | Wellington 12.30pm - meet at Cuba/Manners Mall corner | Christchurch 1pm - Cathedral Square

Links: Search and Surveillance Bill | Stop the Bill!

“It’s interesting,” said Batch, “that in 1973 National spoke against police been given powers to tap phones. Back then, National said ‘…police are the last people who should interfere with telephones.’ ‘Unless we are heading for a dictatorship or a Police State the changes should not be tolerated.’ Now, National want to allow police to install videos and bugs in people’s homes.

“This Bill is open slather on civil liberties and privacy,” said Batch. “Any legislation that reduces our basic right to privacy and removes civil liberties by extending the power of the state has to be fought by all of us. We are sleep-walking into George Orwell’s ‘1984’ and we have to stop it.”

The October 15th Solidarity group has produced a leaflet about the bill. What's all the fuss about the Bill? explains the details.

Various groups made submissions against the bill last October. A list of all the submissions is available here. Greenpeace, the Council of Trade Unions, the Wellington Peoples' Centre and the Council for Civil Liberties all gave submissions. This has now delayed the bill from becoming a reality - time to organise opposition!

Comments

Generally the public see the

Generally the public see the role of the police as criminal investigation and traffic control. When it comes to political surveillance the general public tend to see this as the roll of specifically trained spy groups like the SIS and on some levels, military intelligence, or are just not aware of it at all. Although most believe that you should be able to have a political view and express it without fear of being spied on and, the bill of rights alludes to this as well as the freedom from prejudice because of political views, which many see spying as a form of political prejudice.

However police institutions in many countries are shifting their focusses away from criminal investigation and are setting up massive departments whose sole focus is a form of pre-emptive policing, or database policing. In order to achieve this successfully the police need almost unfetted powers of intrusion and observation, which in my opinion is part of the back story behind the search and surveillance bill.

The end game being something kind of science fictioned but nevertheless a real objective of policing and that is to be able to determine through databasing everything about a person their tendencies to traverse a law or laws and at what level, their risk of committing any crime for necessity, political or personal gain, their risk level of being involved in a particular crime etc etc etc. The ultimate in pigeon-hole personality databasing.

The question then is, is this something people want in this country and are people ready to cede all forms of privacy in order to achieve this (even though these will be whittled away slowly rather than in one big chunk like the mistake the US Govt made with the Patriot Act) level of preceived security?

Another question that needs to be asked is what will be the long term social affect of surveillance policing, where while societies in the past have at times been subjected to a lesser level of surveillance, but these are 'usually' in times of war and are therefore temporary and spy agencies of the past have never had so much access to the inner lives of people due to the advancements in technology.

Some thoughts,

George Rangiaho

To be honest, I'd be most

To be honest, I'd be most concerned if military intelligence was involved on spying on protests that have nothing to do with the military.

The police are good, the

The police are good, the police are right, they are not power hungry, paranoid delusional and racist, we should just trust them. If you are not doing anything illegle then you have nothing to fear. Ring your local stazi office now and offer to have police cameras put in your home...why not, it is already being trialled in the US...if its done in the US then it can't be bad can't it??? if you are not doing anything wrong then what do you have to fear????

In The Flesh (Roger Waters,

In The Flesh (Roger Waters, 1977)


So ya
Thought ya
Might like to
Go to the show.
To feel that warm thrill of confusion,
That space cadet glow.
I've got some bad news for you sunshine,
Pink isn't well, he stayed back at the hotel
And they sent us along as a surrogate band
We're gonna find out where you folks really stand.

Are there any queers in the theater tonight?
Get them up against the wall!
There's one in the spotlight, he don't look right to me,
Get him up against the wall!
That one looks Jewish!
And that one's a coon!
Who let all of this riff-raff into the room?
There's one smoking a joint,
And another with spots!
If I had my way,
I'd have all of you shot!

Good to have such

Good to have such demonstrations against the police state of prisons and jails.  Just happen to notice that this demo is on Mumia-Abu- Jamal's birthday.  Imagine being on death row in Philidelphia for twenty-eight years for which charges he is entirely innocent of, and the Fraternal Order of Police won't give a new trial on the real evidence, but are pushing for the death sentence.  That is what cops for punishment bring about basic fundamental injustice.  We need   ecological organic communes, not prisons. 

Prisons were orginally called Slaveholder Pens by the Roman empire, Sextus and the Emperor of Rome.  The British Tribes had communal organic gardens before the conquest.  To bad they have not even restored the matriarchy, 50-50 electing of women since the conquest around 42ad.  Now tell me who are the real criminals anyway. 

The cops guns are at the matriarchy as gender inequality, and the poor working peoples.  They pretend justice for all but everyone knows they are the Royal empirists error.

Mumia-Abu- Jamal would appear

Mumia-Abu- Jamal would appear to be guilty to me, even after reading the accounts on the rather biased propaganda sites set up to make him look innocent, which they fail in.

mumia is obviously innocent

mumia is obviously innocent and framed.  a threat to the system with his journalistic gift from a young age.  he has continued his dispatches criticising american foreign policy despite being on death row.  he is one of the most eloquent critics of american capitalism alive.  free mumia!

No, the case against him is

No, the case against him is pretty damning, and involves stuff that simply couldn't have been made up or involved in his framing.

Personally I don't care how eloquent he is, he murdered another human.

mumia

As much as I would like to believe he is innocent - he is quite clearly guilty.

To be fair, there are some

To be fair, there are some (gross) inaccuracies in the flyer.

I do object the broadening of search, seizure and surveillance powers outside the Police and core intelligence agencies.

But I've got a much greater objection to the spreading of misinformation to support an otherwise worthy cause.

Makes one wonder whether they've even read the proposed legislation...

This has really moved the masses?

With all respect to what the activists involved did and organised, does this truly convince anybody here that this has "moved the masses"?

I am seriously close to despair and day by day lose more belief in this hopelessly dumbed down and brainwashed population in this country. There are 150 or as some claim up to 300 demonstrators in Auckland to take a stand against the Search and Surveillance Bill before Parliament!? The next morning close to 15 thousand attend the dawn service at the Auckland War Memorial Museum to remember the fallen at Gallipoli and in other wars.

So what does all this mean?

NOTHING has changed and been learnt in this country over decades!

This is to me the dumbest place on earth and I have been to many countries all over the globe!

If you people really think that you get things moving here, you are absolute dumb losers!!!!!

Your population is amongst the dumbest and most compromising and brainwashed on the whole planet. I would be bloody ashamed to be a NZ'er!!!

Good luck to your useless struggle!

 

Well it's better than doing nothing...

I don't think we have a monopoly on stupid. From what I've learned talking to people globally the 1st world, especially the old traditionally Anglo-Saxon countries are sleep walking into a nightmare like the drugged masses out of Blake's 7, except without the Pylene 50 in the water and everyone dressed like extras from the Eurovision Song Contest.

But what else are we going to do?

I've been inactive for ages but I've come to the conclusion that the whole situation is absurd, and that it would be absurd to do nothing having realised that, so I'll do something no matter how seemingly futile it is.

There's a slightly better chance that might achieve something rather than doing fuck all and spewing out your angst at us like a desperate cry wank at 3AM in the morning.

I invite you to join our useless struggle. May as well focus all that bile in you on fucking shit up.

 

^^^while i agree with you

^^^while i agree with you regarding the apathetic population that does not mean those that give a shit should stay silent and do nothing that is even worse!

150 or 50 or whatever it doesnt matter its better than nothing happening and everyone being a compliant citizen not questioning anything.

whatever your cause is keep at it !

ps ..if you think kiwis are dumb ,have you ever been to aus...

Other than sheep, and a fruit

Other than sheep, and a fruit called 'kiwi', this country is just as world famous for its apathy, a country you can come and piss on and noone will really give a shit. This country prides itself in superficiality, mediocrity and banality, bred to be a apathetic herd of passive consumers and non-participants.

Oh god, shortland street is on soon, followed by police 10/7, CSI Miami, Highway Patrol and Badboys.....ahhh a nice evenings viewings on the one eyed monster.

Dont forget to wipe your arse

Dont forget to wipe your arse with this appropriate loo paper.

=> dr wu: Beauty! Maybe put

=> dr wu: Beauty! Maybe put both phil goff and john keys pictures on the other side so I can wipe my arse and use both sides of the paper effectively cutting toilet paper use by 50%.

Sticky fingers

That would leave sticky fingers though. Ha ha

Dont forget to wipe your arse

Dont forget to wipe your arse with this appropriate loo paper.

 

Thanks for that Dr Wu, that made my day.

Why we need a Search and Surveillance Act

Why do we need a Search and Surveillance Act? To prevent scenes like this in New Zealand-

Anarchists in Athens

These "revolutionaries" caused the deaths of three innocent people in Athens yesterday. They clearly do not understand the causes of, and the necessary measures required to resolve, the economic crisis in Greece. Instead, they react with violence, as if that will solve anything.

 

Yea Lentil, the last time

Yea Lentil, the last time this country saw scenes like that was during the springbok tour. The search and surveillance act would have given the cops the powers to make sure that didn't happen and we all could have just gotten on with being goodygood citizens.

Meanwhile on planet earth....if that is what you are most afraid of Lentil/Leon? Here I thought the search and surveillance aparatus was to give the police powers to catch violent criminal gangs that manufacture P.

The cops already have the terrorism suppression act to catch activists thinking bad thoughts....do they not?

Search and Surveillance Act/

Search and Surveillance Act/ Terrorism Suppression Act - whatever it takes for the police to get the job done. If activists use violence, they are not legitimately exercising their right to freedom of speech.

Leon is not me.

Leon is not me.

There is no crime of thinking bad thoughts. So think all the bad thoughts you want.

The fact that charges couldn't be brought against the Urewera idiots shows the shortcomings of the Terrorism Suppression Act. But the leaked affidavitshows (1) that surveillance of these wannabes and their looney fringe activities is necessary and (2) there are checks and balance in place to ensure that that is not abused. If the proposed S&S Bill helps in preventing those people from consummating their sick political fantasies, then I support it.

Re: Switched on Gardener. Like it or not, growing and distributing weed is a crime. If you rub Police's face in it by advertising "budzilla" on national television then not only are you stupid (or incredibly naive) but you're also asking to get caught.

Leon is not me. sure...

Leon is not me.

sure...

Mistaken identity

I am not "The Real Lentil", or "Lentil", or any other type of pulse.

Oddly enough it has been the

Oddly enough it has been the left winged Governments of Lange and Clark that have been the most susceptable to police and spy agency fearmongering. No surprises really that some of the Labour supporting conservative lefties have also fallen for their lies too.

@4rager - if what you say is

@4rager - if what you say is true, let me guess why - Moderate left political figures like Lange and Clark would have been conscious of the extreme fanaticism  that activists are susceptible to. They would have participated in Labour party meetings where fringe zealots, each with a mad look in his or her eyes, screeched uncompromising on and on about some point of policy. Right wing policitians, given their typical personal circumstances, probably assume that most people normally act sensibly and debate political issues rationally. People like Lange and Clark know that, when it comes to extremes, that isn't the case in politics. 

@everyone talking above Yeah

@everyone talking above

Yeah ok, I'll play along. Here is my guess why......the surveillance community in this country is and has always been right-winged, conservative, anti-left and often racially prejudiced against Maori. Leading politicians on the right have pretty much been privvy to aspects of this community, aspects of the flow of largely meaningless information they peddle and their paranoid ideals.

The left on the other hand along with Maori in general have been the target of this community and has been excluded from it from day one. That is until Lange and Clark who once becoming privvy to all the inside juicy bits of nothings into everyones lives through their assuming the seat of CEO, were initially seduced by the fresh sense of power that comes with that level of intrusiveness and then at some point they became addicted to the flow of intercepted information and surveillance community paranoid opinions on the rise of Libyan terrorism during the Lange regime, and Al Qaeda terror cells in this country during the Clark regime, which inevitably began to dictate to them policy direction.

The activities of the

The activities of the surveillance community assist the authorities in upholding the law - how is that "right-winged, conservative, anti-left and often prejudiced against Maori"?

Maori cops

the surveillance community in this country is and has always been right-winged, conservative, anti-left and often racially prejudiced against Maori. Leading politicians on the right have pretty much been privvy to aspects of this community, aspects of the flow of largely meaningless information they peddle and their paranoid ideals.

Blind assertion. Unless you are in the surveillance community, how would you know what political leanings it has? In fact, the surveillance community is part of the public service. Under the doctrine of public service neutrality it should not and does not have its own political agenda.

...Maori in general have been the target of this community and has been excluded from it from day one...

Yeah. Check out these white protesters targeting the Maori cop with the camera (linked from other thread). Racism!

Maori representation in the Police is not nearly as bad as you make it out to be. Maori make up about 15% of the total population. And have consistently represented between 11% - 12% of police officers. Even those nasty people in Government think that 3% - 4% discrepancy requires action and have initiated a program to encourage Maori recruitment into the Police. So it's just plain wrong for you to assert that Maori have been excluded from the Police. The opposite is true, they are actively encouraging Maori recruitment.

Check the guns on that guy!

Check the guns on that guy! He clearly doesn't destroy his body with a vegan diet

ignorant fool that thinks

ignorant fool that thinks being a vegan destroys your body , vegans never get sick ,have a healthy glow ..unlike you ignorant dipshits who are a burden on the health system ,piling junk food into your mouth ..you waste of space

http://www.veganbodybuilding.org/main.htm

Gee - you're a little jumpy,

Gee - you're a little jumpy, haven't been getting our B12 vitamins, have we? Oh, that's right, you can't. It's only found in animal products.

you again..you stole my name

you again..you stole my name !

 

anyway piss off im sick of your shit opinions

I hate Lentils - they do not taste like anything!

Lentils are shit, go away. How come you call yourselves such stupid names? Is that your only diet? If so you must have diarrhea every day!

Ouch! Lentil, you must be

Ouch! Lentil, you must be smarting after a remark like this?

In fact, the surveillance

In fact, the surveillance community is part of the public service. Under the doctrine of public service neutrality it should not and does not have its own political agenda.

What utter rubbish. My husband was a member in the community for 10 years and he will tell you exactly the same as what others have said above about its paranoia, power plays and its heavy prejudices.

This is exactly the problem!

Why put a Maori in such a responsible job? He should be doing time in Waikeria! How did he get out? Maybe by way of a "deal" with the police to get his freedom back??? Traitor!

 

Nz would be a better place if .........................................

Sadly back to faked discussion and pushing shit here

I regret to notice that again this forum is being taken over by some BS artists that just want to stir some people up, no matter by what means. Whether they call themselves 'Leon', 'I am Leon', 'No I am Lentil', 'Lentil 1, 2, 3, etc., this is absolute waste of time due to anything raised not being sincere and serious discussion material!

You guys should get together and establish your own "club" of sorts to re-inforce each other's short sighted, biased, judgmental and reactionary views.

One day you will decide to join the "Young Nat's" or even the "National Front".

I and many others here have no time for wasting this valued forum for such nonsensical debates or attempted debates of very shallow material.

So bugger off and get "f**ed!

I am not "The Real Lentil",

I am not "The Real Lentil", or "Lentil", or any other type of pulse.

Of course you are not leon, you just come in and post minutes after real lentil does every day and just happen to hold the same view of the world that can only be seen from the inside of an airbubble. I believe in coincidences like that, I do, really, I do.

So since we now establish that you and lentil are in fact the same person playing good cop bad cop with your alter ego, I officially name you both agent provocateur, and the same person.

"Stir up", I prefer to

"Stir up", I prefer to provoke debate. But if you can't handle someone challenging your views, "bugger of and get f**ed"

What is wrong with a bunch of young guys warming themselves?

This was a riduculous comment by someone who does not even understand what went on in Athens! Well he is supposed to be a "smart ass Kiwi", so what do you expect! This stuff happens all the time during various actions in major European cities, whether it is on May Day, due to some riots by migrant protestors in Paris, gypsies in an Easter European country "protesting" about their bad luck and so forth! So get a life! People express themselves in different ways, which may be described as "cultural expressions"! If they use the chance to also warm their hands, so it be. If allegedly some people threw something into a bank that was known to rip people off and some people inside were caught, does that means the action that allegedly took place was intentional? Study the law of lands and come up with a sensible comment, not pre judgment and making up things!

Where to begin with this

Where to begin with this rubbish posted by Adolf?

People express themselves in different ways, which may be described as "cultural expressions"!

I'm sorry mate, but are you having a laugh? What kind of culture expresses itself by killing three innocent people? What else can I say? You're clearly an idiot.

If allegedly some people threw something into a bank that was known to rip people off and some people inside were caught, does that means the action that allegedly took place was intentional?

According to the New York Times, the "something" you speak of was a "gasoline bomb". It doesn't require to much thinking (more than you are capable of, unfortunately) to expect using "something" like that might start a fire.

What difference does it make if the bank "was known to rip people off"? Are you saying that the people caught in the fire had it coming? That's absurd.

Study the law of lands and come up with a sensible comment, not pre judgment and making up things!

Yes, lets. I can't say for certain what the criminal law is in Greece, but I think we can safely assume that is a crime to engage in negligent or reckless conduct that results in death and destruction. That's common sense. Surely you can't expect that hurling a petrol bomb into a busy bank is behaviour permitted by the law, in any country.

No - I am just getting facts STRAIGHT! That is what you dislike

You do not get it! I stated something as a matter of fact! You go on about "killing three innocent people", and so forth. What are you arguing? There were reports of apparantly 3 people dead in a bank building that burnt before. So whether somebody may have thrown something into it or not, that is still to be established. You are making your judgment already it seems. That means you are full of prejudice and a person not respecting legal principles like "innocent until proven guilty"! That to me makes you some kind of person of a "special class". I dare to say you are inclined to prejudice, hatred, envy and a society that rules according to your principles!

 

That to me is a very questionable approach.

 

Where is your respect for human values, human dignity, the rule of law and so forth?

 

It appears to not exist.

 

So keep on your hasty arguments and prejudices, you are standing and shallow ground, dear old foolish mate!

 

I was trying to make clear that some people have different ways to express themselves and also indirectly acknowledging that may not be appropriate to our cultural or legal standards.

 

Be it so or not, I do not like what I saw on the media about Athens yesterday. But do you know the whole truth already? Were you there amongst the masses? It sounds like you were!

 

That is hyppocrisy!

 

So bear with it, there may have been serious crimes committed, the authorities may look into it, but in the meantime the country and many parts of the world go to the pits.

 

Have you made your judgments about Stalin, Lenin, Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, Castro and Mao Dse Dong yet? It would be interesting to read your analysis. I hope you studied the relevant history, otherwise we may be wasting our times.

 

Cheers

I'm sorry Adolf, I'm not

I'm sorry Adolf, I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to make.

Of course, I accept that anyone suspected of perpetrating the firebomb attack in Athens is entitled to a fair trial. But if you're concerned about facts, consider this: the attack occured during a protest rally, known anarchist groups participated in that rally, a gasoline bomb was hurled into a busy bank, anarchists have a history of causing damage to banks and other representatives of "capitalism". The chain of events points to anarchists being responsible for the firebomb attack, and consequently, the deaths that happened as a result.

But what I really object to is your attitude towards the people killed.

If they use the chance to also warm their hands, so it be.

You don't seem to care. Are the dead just collateral damage? How many need to die to prove your point?

Have you made your judgments about Stalin, Lenin, Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, Castro and Mao Dse Dong yet? It would be interesting to read your analysis. I hope you studied the relevant history, otherwise we may be wasting our times.

Not quite sure where you're going with this? These men were ruthluss murderers, do you think they set a good example or something?

 

Statement by the Skaramanga

Statement by the Skaramanga squat in Anthens

Quote:
The murderers “mourn” their victims

(Regarding today’s tragic death of 3 people)

The enormous strike demonstration which took place today, 5th of May turned into a social outflow of rage. At least 200,000 people of all ages took to the streets (employees and unemployed, in the public and private sector, locals and migrants) attempting, over many hours and in consecutive waves, to surround and to take over the Parliament. The forces of repression came out in full force, to play their familiar role – that is, of the protection of the political and financial authorities. The clashes were hours long and extensive. The political system and its institutions reached a nadir.

However, in the midst of all this, a tragic event that no words can possibly describe took place: 3 people died from infusions at the branch of Marfin Bank on Stadiou Avenue, which was set ablaze.

The state and the entire journalistic riff-raff, without any shame toward the dead or their close ones, spoke from the very first moment about some “murderer-hooded up youths”, trying to take advantage of the event, in order to calm the wave of social rage that had erupted and to recover their authority that had been torn apart; to impose once again a police occupation of the streets, to wipe out sources of social resistance and disobedience against state terrorism and capitalist barbarity. For this reason, during the last few hours the police forces have been marching through the center of Athens, they have conducted hundreds of detentions and they raided – with shootings and stun-grenades – the anarchist occupation “space of united multiform action” on Zaimi street and the “migrant haunt” on Tsamadou Street, causing extensive damage (both these places are in the Exarcheia neighbourhood of Athens). At the same time the threat of a violent police eviction is hanging over the rest of the self-organised spaces (occupations and haunts) after the Prime-ministerial speech which referred to soon-to-come raids for the arrest of the “murderers”.

The governors, governmental officials, their political personnel, the TV-mouthpieces and the salaried hack writers attempt in this way to purify their regime and the criminalise the anarchists and every unpatronised voice of struggle. As if there would ever be the slightest of chances that whoever attacked the bank (provided the official scenario stands) would possibly know there were people inside, and that they would torch it alight regardless. They seem to confuse the people in struggle for themselves: them who without any hesitation hand over the entire society to the deepest pillage and enslaving, who order their praetorians to attack without hesitation and to aim and shoot to kill, them who have lead three people to suicide in the past week alone, due to financial debts.

The truth is that the real murderer, the real instigator of today’s tragic death of 3 people is “mister” Vgenopoulos, who used the usual employers’ blackmailing (the threat of sacking) and forced his employees to work in the branches of his bank during a day of strike – and even in a branch like the one of Stadiou Avenue, where the strike’s demonstration would pass through. Such blackmailing is known only too well by anyone experiencing the terrorism of salaried slavery on an everyday level. We are awaiting to see what excuses Vgenopoulos will come up with for the relatives of the victims and for the society as a whole – this ultra-capitalist now hinted by some centers of power as the next prime minister in a future “national unity government” that could follow the expected, complete collapse of the political system.

If an unprecedented strike can ever be a murderer…

If an unprecedented demonstration, in an unprecedented crisis, can ever be a murderer…

If open social spaces that are alive and public can ever be murderers…

If the state can impose a curfew and attack demonstrators under the pretext of arresting murderers…

If Vgenopoulos can detain his employees inside a bank – that is, a primary social enemy and target for demonstrators…

…it is because authority, this serial murderer, wants to slaughter upon its birth a revolt which questions the supposed solution of an even harsher attack on society, of an even larger pillage by capital, of an even thirstier sucking of our blood.

…it is because the future of the revolt does not include politicians and bosses, police and mass media.

… it is because behind their much-advertised “only” solution, there is a solution that does not speak of development rates and unemployment but rather, it speaks of solidarity, self-organising and human relationships.

When asking who are the murderers of life, of freedom, of dignity, the ferments of authority and capital, they and their tuft hunters only need to take a look at their own selves. Today and every day.

HANDS OFF FREE SOCIAL SPACES

IT IS THE STATE AND THE CAPITALISTS WHO ARE THE MURDERERS, TERRORISTS AND CRIMINALS

EVERYONE TO THE STREETS

REVOLT

from the open assembly of the evening of 5/5/2010

 

http://libcom.org/news/management-bank-strictly-barred-employees-leaving-today-while-they-also-forced-employees-lo

What nonsense

The statement posted above is utter rubbish. A pathetic attempt to excuse the activists responsible for the deaths of the people in the bank. 

I take the above statement to say that the deaths were justified because of the actions of the Greek state and security forces in responding to the social unrest in the country. I'm sorry, but two wrongs do not make a right. You're distorted morality is deeply disturbing. I hope you stay away from children

I think it is tragic that

I think it is tragic that three workers lost their lives and highlights how the attacks on banks, like in this situation always has the potential to cause loss of workers lives and that as a tactic it has to be seriously questioned.

It can also alienate anarchists from the wider social movement and give an excuse for the forces of the state to crack down harder and use more violence on the people.

I certainly don't support these actions and am not trying to justify what happened.

It has given the state in Greece and international media the ammunition to demonise not only anarchists but the entire movement against this capitalist 'crisis' and 'bailouts'.

 

This from a comment in the discussion   http://www.anarchistblackcat.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6566

 

For all people, especially the ones commenting here, who use the death of three human beings to post their hatespeeches against anarchists, ask youself this: have you ever reacted that way when yet another immigrant was beaten or/and even murdered by Athens police? have you ever reacted that way, when yet another ten or hundred or thousand civilians died in Iraq or Afghanistan or somewere else in this world? Do you post hatefull comments on mainstream media pages every day, for the tens of thousands of people who are structurarely killed by an unreasonable global economical power system on a daily basis? No? Then you should maybe just shut up and start thinking…unless you actually like the state of the world, cause it provides you with a colour tv, a car, a house of your own and cheap bananas. And all that just for the price of having to look at all human beings as competitors and potential threats!

To all anarchist and leftradical comrades:
While we do not know who threw the molotov and should definately fight back against the political and medial campaign that points the finger at the people fighting against their misery, we should also be brave enough to admit that it is possible it was “one of us”.

Another useful source of information from Greece:

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2010/05/06/281-names-of-the-dead-anno...

State terror in

'I am Leon'

Well - let us try is this way: When you feel a bit itchy and under severe pressure to survive, say, do you then go the next administrative office to enquire and ask: Hey there, sorry mate, but I just wondered, what do I have to do if I feel that I think a revolution is appropriate? Do I need to fill in a form, make an application and have it decided on in the coming week? Please advise me, dear officer, because this is a matter of some importance to me now. Well, dear applicant, we have no such applications, but I will enquire with our administrative head, the administrator may answer. Do you then go home, sit down and think, will I get a permit to have a revolution or not!? Maybe I better go on the safe side, tighten my belt, starve and be evicted from my flat, because really, I do not wish to go against the law and/or rock the boat! So be it, I feel confined and comfortable with this solution. Let others worry about the revolution! Good Luck! Ha ha, Leon and ' I am Leon', 'Lentil 1, 2,3, ...99, that is where you come from. Also you are hedging your own hedge funds, so to say. You are absolutely hyppocritical and dishonest. I rather not have a revolution too, but when things go broke, do you want to trust the corrupt and useless bastards that got us there?

No reply, so must be "off line"

Well again, there will never be a revolution of any kind in NZ, even not if some dream of such. The people are so docile, brain-washed and otherwise gutless and indifferent, they would never get such an idea anyway. It may nevertheless be somewhat entertaining to throw that thought at them, just to see how they react! NZ loves to follow lemings, be sheepish and work very, very hard for little and get nowhere. That is what people may not be happy with, but they put up with it all the time! Ha ha! Could think of thousands of better places than this paddock!

Why does there need to be a

Why does there need to be a revolution in New Zealand? I think most people are happy with things just they way they are.

nz may or may not need that

nz may or may not need that type of revolution as a solution to its problems but reality is going to bite this country hard. you should try to get out more and experience the likes of the poor areas in this country and see if you can still maintain that sanctimonious undertone that exists in everything you write here.

Statement from one of the bank workers

From one of the workers at Marfin Bank, the bank in question:

 

"I feel an obligation toward my co-workers who have so unjustly died today to speak out and to say some objective truths. I am sending this message to all media outlets. Anyone who still bares some consciousness should publish it. The rest can continue to play the government’s game.

The fire brigade had never issued an operating license to the building in question. The agreement for it to operate was under the table, as it practically happens with all businesses and companies in Greece.

The building in question has no fire safety mechanisms in place, neither planned nor installed ones – that is, it has no ceiling sprinklers, fire exits or fire hoses. There are only some portable fire extinguishers which, of course, cannot help in dealing with extensive fire in a building that is built with long-outdated security standards.

No branch of Marfin bank has had any member of staff trained in dealing with fire, not even in the use of the few fire extinguishers. The management also uses the high costs of such training as a pretext and will not take even the most basic measures to protect its staff.

There has never been a single evacuation exercise in any building by staff members, nor have there been any training sessions by the fire-brigade, to give instructions for situations like this. The only training sessions that have taken place at Marfin Bank concern terrorist action scenarios and specifically planning the escape of the banks’ “big heads” from their offices in such a situation.

The building in question had no special accommodation for the case of fire, even though its construction is very sensitive under such circumstances and even though it was filled with materials from floor to ceiling. Materials which are very inflammable, such as paper, plastics, wires, furniture. The building is objectively unsuitable for use as a bank due to its construction.

No member of security has any knowledge of first aid or fire extinguishing, even though they are every time practically charged with securing the building. The bank employees have to turn into firemen or security staff according to the appetite of Mr Vgenopoulos [owner of Marfin Bank].

The management of the bank strictly bared the employees from leaving today, even though they had persistently asked so themselves from very early this morning – while they also forced the employees to lock up the doors and repeatedly confirmed that the building remained locked up throughout the day, over the phone. They even blocked off their internet access so as to prevent the employees from communicating with the outside world.

For many days now there has been some complete terrorisation of the bank’s employees in regard to the mobilisations of these days, with the verbal “offer”: you either work, or you get fired.

The two undercover police who are dispatched at the branch in question for robbery prevention did not show up today, even though the bank’s management had verbally promised to the employees that they would be there.

At last, gentlemen, make your self-criticism and stop wandering around pretending to be shocked. You are responsible for what happened today and in any rightful state (like the ones you like to use from time to time as leading examples on your TV shows) you would have already been arrested for the above actions. My co-workers lost their lives today by malice: the malice of Marfin Bank and Mr. Vgenopoulos personally who explicitly stated that whoever didin’t come to work today [May 5th, a day of a general strike!] should not bother showing up for work tomorrow [as they would get fired]."

 

There's also a statement from the OTOE, the bank workers union, which went on strike today, at http://libcom.org/news/management-bank-strictly-barred-employees-leaving...

Yes, but...

OK, it seems that the manager of this bank fits the mold of a anarchist's/leftist activist's "captialist" caricature. And, yes, the conduct of the bank management in this case is deplorable. BUT - notwithstanding the lack of fire alarms, training, etc. the cause of this fire was a petrol bomb thrown by anarchists! So, this statement doesn't make any difference. It's more of the same - excuses and justifications for wrongdoing - when will you understand that!

@ 'I am Leon'

Oh, you are a smart one, are you not? We have just got a fair bit of information about the bank in question, how the management treat their staff, how they were told to lock the doors and threatened to be sacked if they would not stay in the bank and continued working!

But "the cause of this fire was a petrol bomb thrown by anarchists".

So if that may be true where does that leave the justification in having staff locked up in the bank, unable to escape?

What is your opinion on "friendly fire" that happens in many military actions in countries like Afghanistan, Iraq and so forth? Because you seem to be so satisfied with the general state of affairs in NZ and supposedly "friendly countries" it is apparent that you are blind on one eye.

If damage is caused by supposed "anarchist" action it is condemnable, but if fellow soldiers, innocent civilians and whoever get killed in fought wars - as a kind of "colletaral damage", there is little mention of this in the media or by people like you - obviously believing the media so much.

You have a one-eyed view and try to preach your conclusions and argue your views here on this forum.

You must start to feel a little lonely now, I believe.

"Hollow men" is the best description of people following such tactics.


Shocking revelations from the

Shocking revelations from the inside of the bank. The bosses should be lined up and egged, then made to clean up the burnt building, then made to hand out food rations and clothes to the poor for a month. As for the molotov throwers they need to be sternly reminded that innocent people work at these places and need to be evacuated before such anger is taken out on these symbols of oppression like banks and lines of riot police.

Is it not possible

Is it not possible that the allegedly anarchist and violent demonstrators thought that the staff at the bank may also have been out on the general strike?

They may have thought that the bank was not staffed at that time and felt tempted to take unacceptable actions due to that, with the intent to send a kind of signal to the owners of that bank.

Whatever exactly happened is regrettable and must be cleared up. To immediately talk about "murder" and send the police to have a general crack-down on certain groups is just escalating things and does not help at all.

But with the pressure the Greek government is under now, they will resort to such and worse measures, to simply keep things under control and enforce the austerity measures dictated by the IMF and the European Central Bank.

It is appalling that the responsible people for the Greek economic disaster get off it and that the common people have to pay the bill for everything.

That is what the anger in the streets of Athens is all about.

This is ridiculous.Some

This is ridiculous.

Some over-zealous activist thought they'd cause do something radical and firebombed a bank. Three people were murdered as a result. It just shows how sad and pointless this kind of mindless violence really is.

These 'activists' have been sucking from the teat of the state. Now that it's run dry they've spit the dummy like a bunch of fucking babies. They didn't realise the Greek economy was always on borrowed time because of its bloated public sector and lack of productive industry.

If they really cared about Greece, instead of throwing a wobbly because they won't get state funded (i.e. Greek bond funded) welfare anymore, maybe they should go out and get real jobs.

Stop making excuses for these nutters. They should be condemned.

you dont know what you are on

you dont know what you are on about ,you nutter!!

just reading through many of

just reading through many of the comments around this discussion area and it seems there is a campaign being run by one or two people hell bent on discrediting the activist communities in this country by labelling anyone who holds strong political opinions with the highly loaded names like "fringe" and "extremist". i just want to encourage everyone to continue to hold your opinions no matter how strong they may be and ignore these manipulators running their little campaign. their agenda is clear, its merely the status quo being rehashed as something challenging.

this country needs action and this government needs activist opposition to keep it in check and its up to the activists who put their time and energy into making change and challenging the status quo that make this place a special place.

history shows us where this bill is heading and where the police are heading to, anyone who thinks this level of intrusive power is necessary to make this place a safer place needs to wake up and take a real look at aotearoa new zealand to see that these law changes are totally unnecessary, over the top, highly intrusive, are against the bill of rights, are anti-constitutional, are merely following in the foolish footsteps of the usa and will not make this country one bit more safer than it already is.

last week down in waikato area 60+ homes of mostly poor rural maori families were raided by police and bailifs in an apparent attempt to send a strongarmed message to people who owe outstanding court fines. all of their cars were confiscated (if they owned one) and will be put up for auction leaving many sick people unable to get transport to see their doctors and children of homes in rural areas where there is no bus route are unable to get to school.

if this is the future of this country then this is why this bill needs to be stopped.

Hmmm. I'm going to assume

Hmmm. I'm going to assume you're talking about Leon and me.

...their agenda is clear, its merely the status quo being rehashed as something challenging.

There is no "Agenda". Just a point of view. It's not that we're trying to "disredit" or "manipulate". We just think you're wrong.

...history shows us where this bill is heading and where the police are heading to...

Does it? I'm not sure that it does. But instead of making vague insinuations that we're marching into the Fourth Reich of the Apocalypse, you should be more explicit and tell us where you think "this bill is heading". That'll give us a laugh.

...anyone who thinks this level of intrusive power is necessary to make this place a safer place needs to wake up and take a real look at aotearoa new zealand to see that these law changes are totally unnecessary, over the top, highly intrusive...

Anyone who thinks that Police surveillance is unnecessary should meet and deal with their local organised crime group. Once those nice young gentlemen are done pack-raping your girlfriend, bashing your mates and selling drugs to your kids, you'll be in a better position to assess whether Police surveillance is necessary or not.

...this government needs activist opposition to keep it in check...

No. There are adequate checks and balances already. There are the opposition political parties, question time, the media, the official information act, the Courts. And, of course, we get to vote once in a while too.

...are against the bill of rights, are anti-constitutional,...

That made me lol. You don't understand how our constitution works.

First off. The Bill of Rights Act 1990 (if that's the "bill of rights" you're referring to) is not a definitive statement of human rights. And it's not higher law cf. the American Constitution. Our Bill of Rights Act is just an interpretive aid which says "if there are a range of possible interpretations of a statute, and one is more consistent with the rights set out in this Act, then adopt that one in preference to the others". So, saying the S&S Bill is "against the bill of rights" makes no sense.

Secondly, on the issue of constitutionality. In a parliamentary democracy (our system) a central principle is "parliamentary supremacy". This means that Parliament is the supreme law making body (because we, the people, selected its Members). No one can overturn Parliament's laws, except for a later Parliament. So, if Parliament turns the S&S Bill into law, it can't be unconstitutional.

 ...last week down in waikato area 60+ homes of mostly poor rural maori families were raided by police and bailifs in an apparent attempt to send a strongarmed message to people who owe outstanding court fines. all of their cars were confiscated (if they owned one) and will be put up for auction leaving many sick people unable to get transport to see their doctors and children of homes in rural areas where there is no bus route are unable to get to school... 

They weren't targeted because they were Maori. They were targeted because they had outstanding Court fines. The same rules apply to everyone.

So, if Parliament turns the

So, if Parliament turns the S&S Bill into law, it can't be unconstitutional

Bad logic from a desparate of pro status-quo activist lentil/leon. People decide whether something is unconstitutional and will vote out a government based on a belief that another government will undo unconstitutional legislation. When there are no options left, i.e. there are no other party's promising to repeal unconstitutional laws then it is up to the people to throw off such a despotic government....

It must be the easiest form of activism the one you have embarked on. Defenders of the state, wow I bet that takes a lot of effort to just take what the government sells you and come in here and repeat their hegemony verbatim.

As for the pack rapists, while were on the generalisation buzz, when the crims are done, in come the cops and pack rape everyone too.

 Bad logic from a desparate

 

Bad logic from a desparate of pro status-quo activist lentil/leon. People decide whether something is unconstitutional and will vote out a government based on a belief that another government will undo unconstitutional legislation. When there are no options left, i.e. there are no other party's promising to repeal unconstitutional laws then it is up to the people to throw off such a despotic government....

You need to dust off your constitutional law books. If Parliament makes a law, it is not "unconstitutional". If a later Parliament repeals the law because the voters don't it, that is "democracy". If a later Parliament doesn't repeal a law it's because the representatives that have been selected by the people don't see the need.

Maybe you're right though. I really liked the Foreshore and Seabed Act. And I really disliked the removal of a parent's right to physically discipline their children. Maybe I should throw a molotov cocktail into a Green Party or Maori Party office. What do you think?

As for the pack rapists, while were on the generalisation buzz, when the crims are done, in come the cops and pack rape everyone too.

Touche! But seeing as it's available, have at this.

"We get our sheilas and we put 'em on the block, let 'em taste the satisfaction of a mongrel's cock... Sieg Heil!.. Sieg Heil!"

Shocking stuff in that

Shocking stuff in that video...thankfully, the Search and Surveillance Bill contains measures to assist the Police with the investigation of organised crime. Let's hope this Bill becomes law.

Nobody should listen to the activists on this website. I'm convinced, given the kind of commentary about the unrest in Greece, that these people are nothing but destructive nihilists. They're professed concerns about society are not genuine. They only protest for protest's sake and delight in senseless vandalism and violence.

Do you guys still do those

Do you guys still do those blue light discos?

Oh yeah, that's where I

Oh yeah, that's where I picked up your mum.

Lol. El Mutante totally asked

Lol. El Mutante totally asked for that.

Stormfront

Hi there Leon, long time no hear! Good on ya, you get these guys sorted! Do not forget to give me a call tomorrow. I got that new supply of mags you wanted. It is fresh from USA. That will get NZ going!

Sturmfront Meister, last time

Sturmfront Meister, last time we spoke I made it perfectly clear to you that I wasn't interested in your kiddie porn collection. How many times do I need to tell you? 

Change of heart?

Sorry mate, we are obviously not on the same wavelength here. You seem to have forgotten what you gave to me and asked me to organise for you!?

Do you always behave like this when someone spots you in a place he did not expect you. Suddenly you pretend you do not know your good old mates!

Well I will remember this!

Talk about the material you refer to. I am surprised you are into that kind of stuff and suddenly deny this.

Nobody should listen to the

Nobody should listen to the activists on this website.

I read all the comments and will decide for myself thank you very much. I tend to look at a balance between logic, reason and passion for people. Your campaign that you and your friend lentil are running here is about discreditting points of view you disagree with.

The reason I refer to it as a campaign as others have also is because while people leave comments, you two intend to dominate a discussion and drive your point of view until people give up trying to reason with your unreasoning positions....and I suppose you would hope also, that they would cease discussing on this website as per your quoted comment above.

That is the true subversiveness that I see, not someone taking the piss with the sturmfront jibe.

I know who you are "lentil "

I know who you are "lentil " and believe me once this bill gets passed you are on our list for surveillance

Who?

Who?

Don't worry, he's just the nicely painted chap in your video!

Don't worry, he's just the nicely painted chap in your video!

Your are not worried, are you?

That's just his way to pass on his best wishes!

Anyway, Leon told me about your plans. I think it is great stuff! We need to get the guys registered on a list. We have already got a lot of info that will bring the results we are looking for.

They will have no idea what is going to hit them soon!

Keep it up 'Real Lentil'!

Wow. Your trying to imply

Wow. Your trying to imply that I'm a white supremacist but making up the "Strumfront Meister" moniker and pretending I know you.

How clever!

How subversive!

Got arrested today by police due to harassment (trivial matter)

Yeah, talk about the surveillance state, the cops and such. I was arrested today while actually copying documents to take to the High Court that address police violence. Believe it or not, somebody supposedly took offence to something I said to a person. The charge was "disorderly behaviour"! This country is short of being a police state! You get charged and persecuted for sometimes trivial matters! In other countries they would not even take such things to court! You may get fined or if you are unhappy be allowed to take it to court. Here everything seems to be taken to a court, so you end up with "a record" for the most of trivial and nonsensical things that you may have done. No wonder so many end up in a  hopeless and vicious cycle and in prison! The second highest imprisonment rate per capita in the OECD we have! What a stupid and destructive society we are. This is so stupid and useless, we may as well close the country down! But the rednecks love it and go on about all this!

You aint seen nothing yet!

You aint seen nothing yet dear Lentil! We are being masters of crafts and will soon reply to all arguments of worth and no worth!

Why do you all want to destroy everything - get a job and work!

This forum is full of perverted morons that rather sit at home while collecting the benefit, drink beer, fart and bludge off people working in decent jobs.

So to hell with your revolutions stuff and twisted thinking.

I will keep supporting the Search and Surveillance Bill to make sure you lot get a life, get put into camps where you will learn to do a proper days work and pay back what you have bludged off people like me.

 

Couldn't have said it better

Couldn't have said it better myself. Not so sure about the camps bit, though

Word around the campfire is

Word around the campfire is the mounties are wanting to talk to the federalis about the riseup.net mail server.....like....urgent like.