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Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckland Uni

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Socialist Aotearoa gathers activists from the unions, movements and the anti capitalist left to discuss the twin evils of economic and climate crisis, and why we must move beyond capitalism as an outdated and failed economic system.

The workshop will be divided into a number of phases, discussing:
(a) marxist theory on the economic crisis
(b) strategies to build a combative anti capitalist movement
(c) what kind of socialist organisation, what kind of socialist society?

Thursday, March 26, 2009. 7:00pm - 9:30pm. Algie Lecture Theatre, University of Auckland Law School. Walk down the path from Waterloo Quadrant

Socialist Aotearoa

Comments

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

You don't need to worry about the "climate crisis." That is a hoax. The fact that the IPCC has been caught fabricating data should tell you a lot. Refer: http://www.prisonplanet.com/ipcc-scientists-caught-producing-false-data-.... New Zealander, Dr Vincent Gray, who has been a reviewer for the IPCC since its inception, wrote a paper which details why there is no crisis, called 'Global Warming Is A Scam.' See: http://climaterealists.com/news.php?id=2010
The elite bankers want us all to pay taxes to them and reduce us to serfs, that is what it is all about. They are going to use the taxes to implement an anti-human agenda. I recommend you watch the documentary 'Endgame' by Alex Jones at Google Video to learn about what is going on behind the scenes.

Re: Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Au

Tell that to the polar bears.

Re: Re: Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum a

Do your homework. There is nothing wrong with polar bear numbers. For example, http://truthgonewild.blogspot.com/2007/11/doomed-polar-bear-another-glob... "Having been up to the bears' habitat in Svalbard, I do have a certain amount of sympathy with these concerns. To claim, however, that they are facing imminent doom is stretching the truth. In 1950, let us not forget, there were about 5,000 polar bears. Now there are 25,000."
And this from the London Telegraph: "Stubborn glaciers fail to retreat, awkward polar bears continue to multiply"
http://www.prisonplanet.com/stubborn-glaciers-fail-to-retreat-awkward-po...

Re: Re: Re: Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa For

You're wrong Claire,
Heres the latest report from the UNEP and the World Glacier Monitoring service proving it
http://www.grid.unep.ch/glaciers/

Id be inclined to believe Wlfried Haeberli, Isabelle Roer, Michael Zemp, Martin Hoelzle, at the University of Zurich over some random reporter any day.

Usual Cherry picking denialist shite again

Re: Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Au

and i recomend you watch Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth"

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

I recommend you study science and go visit the Artic and Nepal.

If you are anti carbon trading (or carbon taxes) that is one things, if however you believe exxon mobil and other companies who have extensively funded the climate denial industry.. then thats another matter.

Its funny that ACT (the big buisness party) is the only one in parliament that is climate skeptic...

Re: Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Au

Dr Vincent Gray who has worked been a reviewer for the IPCC since its inception, has a PhD. He wrote the paper 'The Global Warming Scam' http://www.nzcpr.com/midweek44.htm My guess is that he will know a lot more about this matter than a large majority of New Zealanders, having dealt with the IPCC for years and closely followed their work.
Have you read the comment by Richard N Haass of the elite group, the CFR in The Club of Rome report titled "The First Global Revolution" (1991)? It states: "In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill.... All these dangers are caused by human intervention... The real enemy, then, is humanity itself."
Haass, a Bilderberg member also is telling you that global warming is a scam. If you watch the documentary 'Endgame' you can learn more about Bilderberg member's activities and glean what your carbon taxes will be used for. Refer:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1070329053600562261

Re: Re: Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum a

RE: Vincent Gray
"A search of 22,000 academic journals shows that Gray has never been published in a peer-reviewed journal on the subject of climate change. Gray has published peer-reviewed scientific work on coal with the last article being published 17 years ago." Desmogblog

Nothing you're talking about has been backed up by credible science

Hes a fucking Chemist [PHD] not a Climatologist

He has very strong links with three corporate American think-tanks which have all received massive amounts of funding from Exxon Mobil to keep their denialist propaganda on Climate Change going including the Heartland Institute which has recieved $US 676,500 from Exxon corporations since 1998.

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

I sense you are talking about green capitalism and pollution trading, not climate sciences.

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

The internet in New Zealand is a result of capitalism. Please stop using it.

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

Opensource and d/l music isnt capitalism

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

Capitalist economic theory wouldn't be anywhere near as developed if it wasn't for Marxist economic theory. And Marxism is flawed too.

Combative anti-capitalist movement - oh f*&k what are you on? This is the stuff of an SIS/CTTAG wet dream.

Don't fight it, you'll lose. Better to opt out of it through positive works and develop (or join) a movement from there, there are plenty of positive change options to follow.

The old socialist banner is rather muddy and corrupt these days.

Personally I'm not into labels, but happy with concepts of Social Justice and Human Rights as drivers for change.

p.s. Al Gore is full of it. Did you remeber the comment of NZ saving the PIs when they flood. A blatant lie.

As for Gray, he's 87yrs old. We don't need to fight him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_R._Gray

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

A big shout out to all my Climate Change denial crew!

Yeah beotches! I'm back after a long and scientificall fuitful trip to study the giant ice wall that surrounds our pancake shaped world. Glad to see you haven't given up on the ol' climate denial campaign. I am very sorry to hear about all the crap you guys are getting about the larsen ice shelf cracking to bits. I can assure you that contrary to Google earth, Al Gore and NASA's propaganda campaign, the ice shelf definately dosent exist, I checked while I was away and even took a holiday photo where you can definately see that theres no ice shelf, just a big ice wall at the very edge of the earth.

Put that in one of your bloody peer reviewed propaganda pieces ya big liars!
Stay strong my friends!

Don't give up the fight, and dont let them dirty communist Climate Change freaks get in the way of your right to kill Chinese babies and put windows on the sides of cows.
We're all in this together right?!

anyway…
I’m off to the RSA for a pint with Chris DeFreitas, Rodney hide and Don Brash

Sincerely Nathanial Pipeblower Tzar and 33rd Degree Wizard Master, of the first inverted Pancake lodge, of the totally Awesome, Flat Earth Society NZ Ltd.

-Although we do believe the Earth is Flat, we do have a really cool blog-

http://flatearthersnz.blogspot.com/

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

its a crisis of consciousness at the core,
until we recognise this we will not find lasting sustainable solutions.

its one thing to say the climate is changing,
of course it is, its always changing lol

but an inconveniant truth is very misleading,
particularly the way it portrays that science backs up the documentary.

i'm amazed that the green party has not embarked on large scale education initiatives to even address such a scam.

marxist theory doesn't even recognise a conscious earth - gaia -
marxist theory doesn't at all address that farming meat requires 10 times the amount of resources required to grow veges, let alone all the other environmental effects of large scale agriculture - in any of the food groups.

i feel that marxists and the greens are equally as innefective in shedding any light on the great global warming climate change fraud

have a nice day everyone : )

it is a crisis of consciousness..

Re: Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Au

"but an inconveniant truth is very misleading,
particularly the way it portrays that science backs up the documentary."

Have you even seen Gore's film?

He explicitly explains the political reasons why 95% of the US community of scientists is against his theory. To be sure he uses scientific methods to show why and how we are entering a critical phase.

I suspect you and many others do not like him simply because he was a mainstream politician yet this is still a very feeble reason to dismiss his theory.

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

"What has stymied effective climate action so far, in short, is not lack of ideas, inspiration, alternatives, initiative, knowledge or experience. It is rather the way political and social power is organized, and the way large numbers of people, and especially the middle classes on whose passive consent many political elites are dependent, have been made forgetful about what they already know, ignorant about what already exists, and divided from the movements and processes that are already working toward a solution." Larry Lohmann - 'Carbon Trading: Solution or Obstacle?' www.withoutyourwalls.wordpress.com take a look in the recommended reading section of this website for a social justice perspective on the climate crisis. And take a look at this video where Naomi Oreske as she describes her investigation into the reasons for such widespread mistrust and misunderstanding of scientific consensus and probes the history of organized campaigns designed to create public doubt and confusion about science. Series: "Perspectives on Ocean Science" [12/2007] [Science] [Show ID: 13459] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T4UF_Rmlio You fucking denialists Climate Cranks are the victims of Corporate spin. You dont understand or care about where it fucking originated because it supports either your confused conspiratorial worldview or your hatred for greenies / lefties.

Re: Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Au

I dont care if man made CO2 is an issue or not - I see things happening which are just as bad,or worse.

The problem is turning the lights off for an hour to save the world,for most ends there.The system rolls on. 'Growth must be maintained'

The whole consumerism/capitalist cycle is making us infertile/sick/cancer ridden.

Ive found this guy at anarchistmedia.org interesting-
Joseph Toscano links Social Credit,anarchism,C02 and current events.http://www.3cr.org.au/aggregator/sources/624

http://www.bisphenolafree.org/

http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/doczone/2008/disappearingmale/

Derrick Jensen on civilisation - VERY GOOD!
http://www.archive.org/details/PhilosopherSeed-DerrickJensenEndgamePartO...

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

Thanks for organising this, I'll be there!

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

“Everything is rational in capitalism, except capital or capitalism itself …the system is demented, yet it works very well at the same time”.
(Felix Guattarri, 1995)

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

Will a socialist aotearoa give my peoples land back.

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

bro of course i've seen the film, maybe i'll watch it again cause its been a while but those things stuck in my head,
i'm sure the movie portrays its information as being scientifically proven and to me thats really misleading,

i have nothin against al gore, according to his worldview he's maybe livin his truth, good for him, but what he's part of involves all human beings and most important .. the earth on the whole, i'd call it straight when i say that an inconveniant truth is a massive fraud, an attempt to influence public opinion - wrapped up in a eco friendly package.

without your walls ...

not me bro, i'm pretty clear that mainstream science.. only observes the current limits of our imagination, and its thousands of years behind indigineous knowledge : )

you seem the closest to being full of hatred bro..
bless you though,

and the anti spam code is getting really hard to read

Re: Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Au

"mainstream science.. only observes the current limits of our imagination"

oh for fuck sake

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

lol i came up with that one myself,

this is kind of lame, i'm making these comments to maybe spark some more stimulating exchanges of ideas, and all i'm seeing is negativity.. if that does it for youz by all means.. but i thought these kind of websites could at least bring out some thoughtful beings out of the woodwork on topics like climate change. i'm kind of new to indymedia
i'm not a troll and that is my real name,

i'm curious, is it conspiratorial to question science ? or to bring up what i perceive are contradictions within many a socialist and marxist thought on issues like climate change ..

someone enlighten me .. and why not add your real name

have a nice day : )

Re: Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Au

Hello Nick, and thanks for your comments.

I recommend anyone questioning the validity of man made Climate Change to take a look at this excellent video. I think you'll like it, its really interesting.

Naomi Oreskes: history of organized campaigns designed to create public doubt and confusion about the validity of the science of man-made Climate Change.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-br8Yewo9A0&feature=related

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

a lot of people question the nature of industrial growth and corporate capitalism. yes there are power networks and hidden elites.

climate sceptics dont have a model for how the world should be, or what kind of society is good, they are just full of doubt.

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

cheers gary

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

u might already know about it, but look into 'The Venus Project'

part of the Zeitgeist films

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

Nick wrote:
"marxist theory doesn't even recognise a conscious earth - gaia -"

Why should it. Marxism isn't a religious movement - despite some people's blind faith and attempts to deify Marx. Marxism is a secular theory. Gaia is a spiritual/religious concept.

"marxist theory doesn't at all address that farming meat requires 10 times the amount of resources required to grow veges..."

No, but it doesn't address the relative merits of AM or FM radio either, or any number of other issues. It's not some kind of source of all known knowledge. But actually in Marx there is a discussion of the role farm animals play in the economy and Marx was writing before these issues became significant. Sure, most people who can afford it eat more meat and dairy than they need, or we evelved to eat. But the planet still produces more food than it needs, and could do so sustainably. So while I agree that reduced meat consumption would be good for many people, IMO it's not the pressing issue some people would claim.

"...let alone all the other environmental effects of large scale agriculture - in any of the food groups."

You obviously haven't read capital Vol. 3 (which was written before really large scale industrial farming as we know it even existed) or John Bellamy Foster, or ...
Cheers,
John

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

hi john

does the gaia concept require blind faith ?

have you red frijof capra ? i think its called 'the cycle of life'

even if it is a spiritual/religious concept that doesn't mean its something one shouldn't consider when discussing issues like climate change and the economic crisis, regardless of whether marxism is secular,
but if we want to have a discussion thru only a marxist lense thats fine, but again this is my point - i feel that there many concepts that would be useful in the context of discussing the economic crisis,

sure i haven't red capital volume 3, you've prob highlighted a reason not to. large scale agriculture is a massive issue environmentally, my intention hea is not to have a debate on the merits of being a non meat eater, i've done this b4 with marxists. but if we are talking about sustainability - to my way of thinking - large scale agriculture, especially of meat, is something that one cannot overlook.

no one has claimed marxism or anything else is a source of all knowledge, but we are talking about things that i feel require the ability to transcend any particular ideology,

and re naomi oreske..

interesting but not controversial or particularly enlightening imo, yeah there's spin doctors and disinformation everywhere,
i think a distinction can be made between climate change skeptics, climate change deniers, and those investigating the so called science behind all the information, personally i feel its useful to re examine mainstream scientific methodolgy, who's funding what research, and exactly who is supporting certain viewpoints - so when they say "its scientifically proven" we can say 'is it? and by whom, and also look for who's sayin its incorrect, wrong, and or is presenting information to the contrary.

thanks for your comments john,

Re: Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Au

Nick asks, "Does the Gaia concept require blind faith?"

I would say anything that requires us to believe that the planet is "conscious" does require faith because it moves beyond what we (and science) typically define as conscious. A tree which is being attacked by an insect parasite sets up defense mechanisms that produce toxins to repel the insects. Is this "conscious"? I don't think so, because as far as we know trees have no way of processing information other than in a purely chemical sense. "The Happening" can exist only in fantasy. Likewise, while the planet might respond to external factors, human created or otherwise, and perhaps has a tendency toward equilibrium over time, to suggest that the pile of earth and rock upon which we stand, and which, incidentally, I dearly love and wish to see restored, is actually conscious, does indeed require a leap of faith - one which I do not see myself making, nor needing to make.

No, I haven't read any Capra, but I personally don't need a spiritual angle to tell me the planet needs saving. That's the point I was making about Marxism being secular and there being no need to include a spiritual element into the issue. If people believe that it's their right but you don't need to take on such ideas to value the environment. I personally find it adequate to see the planet as a complex interdependent ecosystem without feeling the need to see it as "conscious", as in the Gaia concept.

I'm puzzled by your saying I've highlighted a reason not to read Cap. vol. 3. You said Marxism doesn't address much things as how much grain you need to produce meat. I said that actually even though Marx lived before these became such big issues, he was already acutely aware of environmental concerns and did write about them in Cap. vol. 3.

I think what's important there is not that his analysis won't be the latest best science and thinking on the subject, but that his method predicted subsequent environmental degradation and it is therefore inaccurate to write Marxism off for allegedly not taking environmental concerns into account. I don't think industrial factory farming as we see today would be the way Marx would have envisaged a sustainable communist future. His writing on the artificial separation (by capitalism) of town and country, and the environmental damage such a separation causes leads me to believe that it is contrary to Marxism. Of course, just because Marx said something doesn't make it true - it's only a method, albeit one I've found useful in understanding society. On this, I think he did raise issues of environmentalism which have laid the groundwork for others who've followed, such as John Bellamy-Foster, who I mentioned and whose "Marx's Ecology" is an important work on the subject of bringing the environment into an integrated socialist perspective.
Cheers,
John

Re: Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Au

Nick asks, "Does the Gaia concept require blind faith?"

I would say anything that requires us to believe that the planet is "conscious" does require faith because it moves beyond what we (and science) typically define as conscious. A tree which is being attacked by an insect parasite sets up defense mechanisms that produce toxins to repel the insects. Is this "conscious"? I don't think so, because as far as we know trees have no way of processing information other than in a purely chemical sense. "The Happening" can exist only in fantasy. Likewise, while the planet might respond to external factors, human created or otherwise, and perhaps has a tendency toward equilibrium over time, to suggest that the pile of earth and rock upon which we stand, and which, incidentally, I dearly love and wish to see restored, is actually conscious, does indeed require a leap of faith - one which I do not see myself making, nor needing to make.

No, I haven't read any Capra, but I personally don't need a spiritual angle to tell me the planet needs saving. That's the point I was making about Marxism being secular and there being no need to include a spiritual element into the issue. If people believe that it's their right but you don't need to take on such ideas to value the environment. I personally find it adequate to see the planet as a complex interdependent ecosystem without feeling the need to see it as "conscious", as in the Gaia concept.

I'm puzzled by your saying I've highlighted a reason not to read Cap. vol. 3. You said Marxism doesn't address much things as how much grain you need to produce meat. I said that actually even though Marx lived before these became such big issues, he was already acutely aware of environmental concerns and did write about them in Cap. vol. 3.

I think what's important there is not that his analysis won't be the latest best science and thinking on the subject, but that his method predicted subsequent environmental degradation and it is therefore inaccurate to write Marxism off for allegedly not taking environmental concerns into account. I don't think industrial factory farming as we see today would be the way Marx would have envisaged a sustainable communist future. His writing on the artificial separation (by capitalism) of town and country, and the environmental damage such a separation causes leads me to believe that it is contrary to Marxism. Of course, just because Marx said something doesn't make it true - it's only a method, albeit one I've found useful in understanding society. On this, I think he did raise issues of environmentalism which have laid the groundwork for others who've followed, such as John Bellamy-Foster, who I mentioned and whose "Marx's Ecology" is an important work on the subject of bringing the environment into an integrated socialist perspective.
Cheers,
John

Re: Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Au

Oops, sorry to have reposted...
Cheers,
John

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

ok to clarify the gaia concept straight from my interpretation, to a direct quote from the person who first officially introduced this concept to mainstream science in 1968.

gaia - "a complex entity involving the earths biosphere, oceans, and soil; the totality constituting a feedback or cybernetic system which seeks an optimal physical and chemical environment for life on this planet. the maintenance of relatively constant conditions by active control may be conveniently described by the term 'homoeostasis' "

JAMES LOVELOCK - gaia - a new look at life. page 10.

i do agree that human consciousness is not exactly the same as the consciousness attributed to gaia, although it does say that humans are a part of gaia.

and that book by frijof capra is called - THE WEB OF LIFE and its very scientific john, i would encourage you to read it b4 you throw out the baby with the bath water - capra is a scientist as are many of his colleagues and people he references,

to further clarify john, i am a former member of the wp, i feel i know enough about the marxism, and the materialist science framework and to highlight the need to transcend any particular ideologies or mainsteam scientific paradigms and methodologies, when discussing past present and future.
my point was that this economic crisis is one of identity and consciousness, the gaia concept in the context of economic crisis opens up a big can of organic free range worms, it suggests there are different ways of knowing, of defining what is real, which obviously shake the foundations of our current reality, hopefully this will lead us to really question who we are, how we got hea, and wea we are going ( identity, consciousness)

my intention hea is not to discredit marxism, because i could and would of commented on the limitations of the hare krishna perspective had it been them who wanted to discuss the economic crisis only from their perspective.

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

ok to clarify the gaia concept straight from my interpretation, to a direct quote from the person who first officially introduced this concept to mainstream science in 1968.

gaia - "a complex entity involving the earths biosphere, oceans, and soil; the totality constituting a feedback or cybernetic system which seeks an optimal physical and chemical environment for life on this planet. the maintenance of relatively constant conditions by active control may be conveniently described by the term 'homoeostasis' "

JAMES LOVELOCK - gaia - a new look at life. page 10.

i do agree that human consciousness is not exactly the same as the consciousness attributed to gaia, although it does say that humans are a part of gaia.

and that book by frijof capra is called - THE WEB OF LIFE and its very scientific john, i would encourage you to read it b4 you throw out the baby with the bath water - capra is a scientist as are many of his colleagues and people he references,

to further clarify john, i am a former member of the wp, i feel i know enough about marxism, and the materialist science framework - to highlight the need to transcend any particular ideologies or mainsteam scientific paradigms and methodologies, when discussing past present and future.
my point was that this economic crisis is one of identity and consciousness, the gaia concept in the context of economic crisis opens up a big can of organic free range worms, it suggests there are different ways of knowing, of defining what is real, which obviously shake the foundations of our current reality, hopefully this will lead us to really question who we are, how we got hea, and wea we are going ( identity, consciousness)

my intention hea is not to discredit marxism, because i could and would of commented on the limitations of the hare krishna perspective had it been them who wanted to discuss the economic crisis only from their perspective

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

ok to clarify the gaia concept straight from my interpretation, to a direct quote from the person who first officially introduced this concept to mainstream science in 1968.

gaia - "a complex entity involving the earths biosphere, oceans, and soil; the totality constituting a feedback or cybernetic system which seeks an optimal physical and chemical environment for life on this planet. the maintenance of relatively constant conditions by active control may be conveniently described by the term 'homoeostasis' "

JAMES LOVELOCK - gaia - a new look at life. page 10.

i do agree that human consciousness is not exactly the same as the consciousness attributed to gaia, although it does say that humans are a part of gaia.

and that book by frijof capra is called - THE WEB OF LIFE and its very scientific john, i would encourage you to read it b4 you throw out the baby with the bath water - capra is a scientist as are many of his colleagues and people he references,

to further clarify john, i am a former member of the wp, i feel i know enough about marxism, and the materialist science framework - to highlight the need to transcend any particular ideologies or mainsteam scientific paradigms and methodologies, when discussing past present and future.
my point was that this economic crisis is one of identity and consciousness, the gaia concept in the context of economic crisis opens up a big can of organic free range worms, it suggests there are different ways of knowing, of defining what is real, which obviously shake the foundations of our current reality, hopefully this will lead us to really question who we are, how we got hea, and wea we are going ( identity, consciousness)

my intention hea is not to discredit marxism, because i could and would of commented on the limitations of the hare krishna perspective had it been them who wanted to discuss the economic crisis only from their perspective

Re: Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Au

I was thinking about titles like "The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism" and "Belonging to the Universe: Explorations on the Frontiers of Science and Spirituality", which suggest to me that he includes an element of spirituality, but I'll defer to your knowledge on "The Web of Life". I'm not being facetious here. I also know the gaia concept is used by a lot of people who are more explicitly spiritual.

I know you're an ex-WP person so I assumed you had at least a passing sympathy for a Marxist approach. I still feel that you are persisting (by omission) to imply that Marxism doesn't have the capacity to address issues of environment. You haven't acknowledged any of the work done by Marxists. Instead you have just restated your view that we can't discuss stuff "only from [one] perspective". But isn't it reasonable that a socialist group (Socialist Aotearoa) would want to discuss the issue from a socialist perspective? What's the purpose of posting in response to a socialist group's notice of their meeting, that it isn't right to "only [discuss stuff] from their perspective". It comes across as an attack on that group (of which I am not a member) for having a socialist perspective. And given the standard nature of mainstream (and pomo) attacks on socialism - narrow perspective, outdated, doesn't deal with x,y,z, it comes across precisely as an attempt to discredit Marxism. Your own post follows precisely this pattern:
"marxist theory doesn't even ..."
"marxist theory doesn't at all address ..."
"let alone all the other ..."
"i feel that marxists and the greens are equally as innefective in shedding any light ..."

Not attempting to discredit Marxism???
Cheers,
John

Re: Re: Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum a

i stand by those comments john, i don't feel that represents an attempt to discredit anything or anyone, certainly not my intention
i thought it was finally time to highlight the point i've made. especially if we are talking about such a broad issue like an economic crisis..

the purpose.. is to promote some lively discussion isn't it, challenge some ideas ? yes it is reasonable that anyone may want to discuss ideas only from their perspective but its equally as reasonable to challange ideas put forward from certain groups.. surely..?

the reason i used marxism as an example is that its so prominent here, i do have an understanding of it.
i have seen many a social issue brought up hea, very important issues, and to their credit it is marxists and socialists that start up many of these threads,
but.. there is such an abundance of perspectives in this world many of which are ignored or unexplored..
i am very happy to challenge marxists, socialists, maoists, buddhists, christians, new agers, muslims, jews, rastafarians, atheists, agnostics, to expand their perspective,
first and foremost this is what i am doing
( expanding my own perspective)

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

sorry it wasn't intentional to post 3 times

if you don't execute the spam test correctly, then try again, sometimes it doesn't show your post, so you re post and then it shows that i have posted the same one 3 times lol

Re: Capitalism isn't Working: Socialist Aotearoa Forum at Auckla

i stand by those comments john, i don't feel that represents an attempt to discredit anything or anyone, certainly not my intention
i thought it was finally time to highlight the point i've made. especially if we are talking about such a broad issue like an economic crisis..

the purpose.. is to promote some lively discussion isn't it, challenge some ideas ? yes it is reasonable that anyone may want to discuss ideas only from their perspective but its equally as reasonable to challange ideas put forward from certain groups.. surely..?

the reason i used marxism as an example is that its so prominent here, i do have an understanding of it.
i have seen many a social issue brought up hea, very important issues, and to their credit it is marxists and socialists that start up many of these threads,
but.. there is such an abundance of perspectives in this world many of which are ignored or unexplored..
i am very happy to challenge marxists, socialists, maoists, buddhists, christians, new agers, muslims, jews, rastafarians, atheists, agnostics, to expand their perspective,
first and foremost this is what i am doing
( expanding my own perspective)